With utmost Respect...
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:24 pm
That's the only part, Montey where I disagree. It's exactly her voice which is exceptionally good IMHO. It's totally uneducated, true, hence it can't compare with the professinals.Montey wrote:So, in summary, considering who she is and where she comes from, she's very good. But her voice alone is nowhere near enough to make her a superstar.
You are right that vocal education plays a major part, but that's why I provided the youtube of Hayley Westenra singing, as she was only 15 when she sang that, so she hadn't had much education. But here's an example of someone else that doesn't have loads of training who I think has more depth to her vocalisation:ysu wrote:That's the only part, Montey where I disagree. It's exactly her voice which is exceptionally good IMHO. It's totally uneducated, true, hence it can't compare with the professinals.Montey wrote:So, in summary, considering who she is and where she comes from, she's very good. But her voice alone is nowhere near enough to make her a superstar.
But since you're talking painting, I'm sure you've heard about Albert Namatjira...and that wraps it up nicely.
Nope... because I think he's much better.bengatta wrote:Wanna pick this one to bits also Montey???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA
I think he earnt his 42 million hits... but hey, thats just me...
Sorry, wasn't trying to do the "I know more than you, so nyaaa" thing-o, I was just trying to indicate that I had some clue, and wasn't just having a shot for the sake of being a prick.Hz-Lab wrote:Having studied music I would of thought one would understand that what is audible through recording is not always a true representation of reality. What they heard may of been something outstanding, how would we know. I do understand exactly what your saying though, a lot of this shit gets blown out the water, there's thousands of people out there can do it better. I think though, as has already been stated, is that the surprise of it is what is causing it to do the rounds. No one would expect it.
Oh, and as far as I know, there are only a couple of people here with Photographic Backgrounds, The rest are just extremely good amateurs. In a lot of cases some of these "amateurs" have a better eye than a lot of the pro's. By the same token I am sure there are a lot of guys on here with an equal if not better ear than pro's. A couple of guys who have posted in this thread I know have a sensational musical ear & knowledge. So pulling out the "I have more of a clue than you cos i have a certificate" bizzo doesn't fly. Meanwhile, music is an art, and as the age old debate in the photography thread goes... each to their own. No one is ever right with subjective media.
Absolutely... Otis Reading and Miles Davis (in my genre) are great examples.Hz-Lab wrote:wasn't insinuating you were being a prick Montey, It was more to make a point. And yeah, you're definitely right about the rules and such. In this case, you are most likely more right than wrong. However there is some highly successful artists out there that break rules. Random beat patterns, off key vocals, just little silly things here and there. Granted, they never hit mainstream and to the average ear it just sounds shit. But some tend to thrive on it. You can draw comparisons to some art pieces I guess, for every 99 people that think its shite 1 person will love it. But that's not what this thread is about.
Music Theory is not my strong point.
Nope... that's a fairly elaborate misinterpretation of what I am saying. I have not, in any way, suggested you can't like her singing. I have not, in any way, suggested you need an expert's opinion to decide whether or not you are allowed to like it. I have, on numerous occasions now, said she is a perfectly capable singer. What I have said, several times now, is that for where she has come from and the level of training she has received she is very good, but that she is not super-special, fall of your chair, the best thing the judges ever heard, sensational as the youtube clip implied. What I have said is that she has technical weaknesses in her singing that go partially to training but also go to her raw ability, in particular there is a weakness in her ability to express an interpretation of the song she is singing, a skill that is particularly important in the opera/operetta genre.bengatta wrote:Hmmmm, having a bit of trouble keeping up to speed...
Basically what you are saying is...
If you think you like something, then before you can actually confirm if you like it or not, you should call in an expert... have him disect it into layers, strip away all of the goodness, lay it all out to dry to see what bits shrivel up, then have him tell you if you actually do like it or not???
Congratulations, I am glad you like some performers and performances over others, it shows you have the cognitive ability to make decisions for yourself. So -if- she get's a record album, will you buy her record? I won't be, but that's my -personal- opinion, and I am saying I don't think there will be all that many others who will either (she might do well with a first single because of any hype that is built around her, but I don't think there will be many sales after that). But again, thats just my opinion and if you love her work that much you are more than welcome to add her to your CD collection. I certainly won't think any less of you.bengatta wrote:
Basically if I prefer Susan Boyles version more than Hayley Westenra's then somehow I am wrong? that I find strange in a very subjective environment such as music, where winners and losers cannot be as easily defined as those who crossed the finish line first, second, and third like in a motorport event...
I also prefer U2's version of Helter Skelter over the Beatles original version... but can also appreciate others may differ in their opinions to mine... which is that subjective thing coming up again...
I believe I also said she had "balls of steel" for going on the show.... so your opinion of her on that front is nothing unique. Also, that particular judge is not really particularly harsh,he's paid to act out a persona (which he also appears to enjoy), but he also reads the audience reaction and goes with the flow. If he had of completely bollocked her (not that she deserved to be bollocked) the crowed would have lynched him, a bit like when Mark Dickson told off that Australian Idol chick that she shouldn't have worn that dress. Never mind that Dickson was right, it was not P.C., so he got hammered for months afterward. By the way... what happened to that girl... has she been selling many albums lately?bengatta wrote:
Interesting concept, that I guess is only really possible in the wonderful world of internet land....
Personally Montey I found it stunning... nothing to do with Music at all, and I will not even remotely suggest you are not qualified to be critical musically, your credentials are quite clear and definitely allow you plenty of scope to comment musically... But, sometimes things are more than just a single element. To me this is more in terms of the human side of something... like, a woman who as you suggest has possibly been a loser all of her life, most likely acheived nothing of note, and lived a meagre existence, but despite all of those interesting observations and I am sure there were many of them, decided "to hell with it anyway" and chased a dream she has clearly held onto since she was 12 but never found the courage, nor the opportunity to showcase or act out her dream, then finally overcomes all of this and stands up in front of one of the most known harshest critics in music reality television, notorious for picking even the slightest weakness in somebody, and instead makes him stand and applaud despite his, and virtually all of the viewers initial scepticism...
Again... I have not said there is anything wrong with what shes done, I am responding to the audience and judge's reaction, making out like she's the greatest singing talent they have ever seen, making it appear as if she's going to be the next Dame Melba and sell mega-loads of recordings (which -I- think its pretty obvious she won't)bengatta wrote:
99.99% of the population give up on chasing dreams and goals far too young, and it is possible that this woman has not only entertained quite a large number of people, but she may also help others in similar situations re-ignite some dreams, however large or small they may be... if that is a bad thing, then bring on that type of badness every day of the year...
OK, this is where I need to make a distinction. You didn't ask "is Andrea Boccelli more entertaining than a DJ", you asked if he was "better musically" and these are very, very different questions. "More entertaining" means that more people like one or the other, I would argue that more people would probably like the work of leading DJ's than like Boccelli, but I think its obvious that Boccelli would be better musically than all but the most unique DJs, because DJ's don't, as a basic rule, need to understand the music they are putting out to the same level of detail.bengatta wrote:
I do grasp what you are tyring to say, but the world needs to be a non technical place at times... Sometimes people just like stuff for no reason at all, Kylie Minogue has sold millions of Albums globally, yet critically she has been referred to as "the singing budgie"... The world is full of stuff like that, so the question is... "Is it wrong to simply just enjoy something for what it is?" that is the part that is somewhat confusing... or maybe an even more interesting concept is, Is there room on earth for both to exist? Is Andrea Boccelli actually really any better musically than an Ibiza dance DJ shipped in from Dublin for the night to entertain a few thousand speed dancers? Nope, they both have their place on earth... and i hope this Lady gets to live her dream for a bit longer also, now that she has been given the opportunity to show the world she has something that was quite pleasant and entertaining to hear...
A WEEK ago Susan Boyle was an unemployed 47-year-old single cat owner who had never been kissed.
She is still all of the above, but now Boyle can add global megastar to her unlikely CV. Even Oprah Winfrey is lining up to have the Scottish spinster appear on her show.
Over the past week an online clip of the Scotswoman singing on Britain's Got Talent has been viewed more than 20 million times.
In the process the unassuming charity volunteer has sparked an international debate over society's obsession with physical beauty.
The dowdy Boyle was written off as soon as she stepped up to the stage last Saturday, the audience unable to contain their laughter at her hopes of emulating British theatre star Elaine Paige.
But she changed their minds instantly with her powerful performance of I Dreamed a Dream from Les Miserables, earning wild applause.
Without a doubt that is the biggest surprise I have had in three years of the show," said judge Piers Morgan. "Everyone was laughing at you - no one is laughing now."
Back in her tiny home village of Blackburn, near Edinburgh, locals were not so shocked.
"We weren't surprised," Happy Vale Hotel manager Jackie Russell said yesterday.
"When we saw all the faces in the audience mocking her, we were quite hurt by that.
"We were all just saying just 'wait until she opens her mouth and belts it out', and she did.
"We had young boys in here, 19 years old, and they were moved to tears. Everybody had lumps in their throats.
"We were just moved because she'd eventually done something for herself. Susan would do anything for you, and now we feel it's Susan's turn."
The 5000-strong village welcomed her back last weekend with a standing ovation in church.
But, while locals expected her voice to shine, the worldwide reaction was another matter altogether.
National and international TV crews and photographers have filled village streets for days, and phones have been ringing off the hook.
NBC Today Show host Kathie Lee Gifford was moved to tears, CBS interviewed Boyle live, the Washington Post ran a major feature and hundreds of US TV and radio programs have asked to speak to her.
On microblogging site Twitter, it has been one of the most talked-about subjects this week.
Actor Ashton Kutcher wrote about the clip: "This just made my night." Wife Demi Moore replied: "You saw it made me teary!"
Now Oprah Winfrey has invited her to sing on her show, to which Boyle replied: "I might accept the offer if I get the chance. She's quite a lady."
She had been similarly innocent during her talent show appearance, where she revealed she'd been singing since she was 12 and had "always wanted to perform in front of a large audience".
Off-stage, she added: "I've never been married. Never been kissed. Shame ... but it's not an advert."
The attention has seen the hits on her YouTube clips go ballistic, outdoing the response to the Britain's Got Talent 2007 winner Paul Potts.
Potts became a global household name after clips of him singing Nessun Dorma went on to the website.
In a sign of what may be to come for Boyle, Potts went on to have a No. 1 album in 15 countries.
At the Happy Vale Hotel, there's not much work getting done with all the phone calls. Said Jackie Russell: "We've just been off the phone live on radio in Canada. We've had Texas on the phone, we've had everybody on the phone.
"We all knew that she had a beautiful voice, but we didn't know that she would take off like this."
Callers seeking interviews with Boyle yesterday were politely told she was booked solid until next week.
A spokeswoman for the show said: "It's the biggest response in talent show history."
And it wasn't an overstatement.
Of the millions who have watched her performance online, hundreds of thousands have posted supportive comments. Many admit feeling guilty for expecting so little.
"I shamefully admit I passed judgment before she sang," wrote one viewer.
Another said: "You prove that you cannot judge a book by its cover ... you are an inspiration to all of us middle-aged women who think they are dreaming the impossible and are scared to go out and show the world what we are capable of."
Boyle, who is handling the attention remarkably well, agrees that people are "too quick to judge" on appearances.
"There is not much you can do about it; it is the way they think; it is the way they are. But maybe this could teach them a lesson, or set an example," she said.
There are six more auditions before the judges will announce 40 semi-finalists, a quarter of whom will make it into the final at the end of May.