With utmost Respect...

[bengatta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lp0IWv8QZY

Stunning...

[Hz-Lab]

embedding disabled. But I reckon i seen this on the telly this morning. Face like an ash tray, voice like an angel.. bit like Guy Sebastion really.

[Montey]

OK.... ummm..

She's OK, but her voice and vocalization are fairly one-dimensional. I mean, credit where credit is due, her voice is far better than most people who get professional contracts these days, but if you listen to a really good performance you can see what I mean. For a good example see the below youtube. The real reason she's surprised everyone is that she's a small-hokey down nobody who's by and large been a looser all her life. She's got balls of steel to even take this on, but lets not get too carried away with how good she actually is. (Bah-humbug! :-p )

Here's Hayley Westenra at 15 years old singing it:

[youtube] [/youtube]

.. and here's Ruthie Henshall as another contrast:

[youtube] [/youtube]

Being able to sing a song is not just being able to belt out the lyrics in time and in tune, its about being able to do that whilst conveying the emotion of the song to your audience through your voice. It's a little like painting, in that you need to build up the layers on the canvas such that the listener gets a whole picture, including what makes you happy, what makes you sad, what makes you angry, what makes you want to get up and sing that particular song.

So, in summary, considering who she is and where she comes from, she's very good. But her voice alone is nowhere near enough to make her a superstar.

[w00dsy]

she's the new Paul Potts

[Hz-Lab]

Montey is Arse's Molly Meldrum, in a gay way

[Woodee]

you guys are too critical... I think she has a beautiful voice

[w00dsy]

it's the surprise factor, you don't expect a 48 y/o frumpy virgin to be able to sing well. We are always hit with pretty singers that are pretty and blonde.

[ysu]

So, in summary, considering who she is and where she comes from, she's very good. But her voice alone is nowhere near enough to make her a superstar.

That's the only part, Montey where I disagree. It's exactly her voice which is exceptionally good IMHO. It's totally uneducated, true, hence it can't compare with the professinals.
But since you're talking painting, I'm sure you've heard about Albert Namatjira...and that wraps it up nicely.

[bengatta]

Wanna pick this one to bits also Montey???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA

I think he earnt his 42 million hits... but hey, thats just me...

[Montey]

So, in summary, considering who she is and where she comes from, she's very good. But her voice alone is nowhere near enough to make her a superstar.

That's the only part, Montey where I disagree. It's exactly her voice which is exceptionally good IMHO. It's totally uneducated, true, hence it can't compare with the professinals.
But since you're talking painting, I'm sure you've heard about Albert Namatjira...and that wraps it up nicely.

You are right that vocal education plays a major part, but that's why I provided the youtube of Hayley Westenra singing, as she was only 15 when she sang that, so she hadn't had much education. But here's an example of someone else that doesn't have loads of training who I think has more depth to her vocalisation:

[youtube] [/youtube]

The lady from the original post has a very good voice considering where she is coming from, but to fall over like she's the best thing they have every heard is complete bollocks.

(It may not be known by most that if I wasn't in to computers I'd have gone in to music, having played trumpet on-and-off for 24 years, having been a singer since just before I joined the National Boys Choir in 1983, and studied music for my VCE. So where a number of you have an excellent photographic background, I have similar in music.)

[Montey]

Wanna pick this one to bits also Montey???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k08yxu57NA

I think he earnt his 42 million hits... but hey, thats just me...

Nope... because I think he's much better.

I know that song quite well, both singing it and playing it on trumpet (& flugelhorn) myself, and he kicks my arse.

He has an excellent interpretive depth to his singing that conveys a genuine understanding and passion for the song he's singing. He doesn't just amaze with his voice, but he sweeps you up in to the song itself, taking you on a journey through the song, making the piece a life memory.

p.s. Here's some more Paul Potts showing why he's better:

[youtube] [/youtube] [youtube] [/youtube]

[Hz-Lab]

Having studied music I would of thought one would understand that what is audible through recording is not always a true representation of reality. What they heard may of been something outstanding, how would we know. I do understand exactly what your saying though, a lot of this shit gets blown out the water, there's thousands of people out there can do it better. I think though, as has already been stated, is that the surprise of it is what is causing it to do the rounds. No one would expect it.

Oh, and as far as I know, there are only a couple of people here with Photographic Backgrounds, The rest are just extremely good amateurs. In a lot of cases some of these "amateurs" have a better eye than a lot of the pro's. By the same token I am sure there are a lot of guys on here with an equal if not better ear than pro's. A couple of guys who have posted in this thread I know have a sensational musical ear & knowledge. So pulling out the "I have more of a clue than you cos i have a certificate" bizzo doesn't fly. Meanwhile, music is an art, and as the age old debate in the photography thread goes... each to their own. No one is ever right with subjective media.

[w00dsy]

Hz is the real music whizz here, he made mine and Exars farts into a song, you don't learn that at music school.

[Montey]

Having studied music I would of thought one would understand that what is audible through recording is not always a true representation of reality. What they heard may of been something outstanding, how would we know. I do understand exactly what your saying though, a lot of this shit gets blown out the water, there's thousands of people out there can do it better. I think though, as has already been stated, is that the surprise of it is what is causing it to do the rounds. No one would expect it.

Oh, and as far as I know, there are only a couple of people here with Photographic Backgrounds, The rest are just extremely good amateurs. In a lot of cases some of these "amateurs" have a better eye than a lot of the pro's. By the same token I am sure there are a lot of guys on here with an equal if not better ear than pro's. A couple of guys who have posted in this thread I know have a sensational musical ear & knowledge. So pulling out the "I have more of a clue than you cos i have a certificate" bizzo doesn't fly. Meanwhile, music is an art, and as the age old debate in the photography thread goes... each to their own. No one is ever right with subjective media.

Sorry, wasn't trying to do the "I know more than you, so nyaaa" thing-o, I was just trying to indicate that I had some clue, and wasn't just having a shot for the sake of being a prick.

On the "no one is every right on subjective media" stuff... yes & no. On the interpretation stuff, you are correct, in that it is an emotional decision based on the audience personal preferences. But... as in photography there are some fairly hard and fast rules about how to structure things to create an effect that is generally considered pleasing. i.e. as I understand it (being shit at photography) there are some fairly structure rules about the composing of a photograph, managing depth of field and lighting, to create a scene with emotional content, there are similar things in music (to name a very small selection), about how chords are structured, about how notes flow (for example a using moving 7th progressions) and how to construct the presentation of a piece of operatic music so there is a definitive beginning, middle and ending that manages the listeners emotional and cognitive state.

I'll say this again.... she is very good for where she has come from.

She is very surprising given her outward presentation, however she's no musical revelation or sensation like the audience and the judges in the video imply.

[Hz-Lab]

wasn't insinuating you were being a prick Montey, It was more to make a point. And yeah, you're definitely right about the rules and such. In this case, you are most likely more right than wrong. However there is some highly successful artists out there that break rules. Random beat patterns, off key vocals, just little silly things here and there. Granted, they never hit mainstream and to the average ear it just sounds shit. But some tend to thrive on it. You can draw comparisons to some art pieces I guess, for every 99 people that think its shite 1 person will love it. But that's not what this thread is about.

Music Theory is not my strong point.

[Montey]

wasn't insinuating you were being a prick Montey, It was more to make a point. And yeah, you're definitely right about the rules and such. In this case, you are most likely more right than wrong. However there is some highly successful artists out there that break rules. Random beat patterns, off key vocals, just little silly things here and there. Granted, they never hit mainstream and to the average ear it just sounds shit. But some tend to thrive on it. You can draw comparisons to some art pieces I guess, for every 99 people that think its shite 1 person will love it. But that's not what this thread is about.

Music Theory is not my strong point.

Absolutely... Otis Reading and Miles Davis (in my genre) are great examples.

But, its like when you see one of these 8 year old's finger paintings and the mum and some agent are trying to tell the world they are an artistic genius. But the difference between a paint artist and a kid with finger-paints is conscious interpretation and intention. A paint artist does a stroke on a canvas for a very deliberate reason that expresses something deliberate and conveys an emotion, a kid finger paints because its fun to make a mess or make mum smile and expresses how hyper-active they were at the time.

Miles Davis improvises because he's looking to convey a message, someone who is shit on the trumpet breaks the rules because they don't know what the rules are. Beethoven broke the rules, because he was writing a whole new rule book, but he understood the existing rules extremely well and decided he didn't like them. Potts was excellent because he just naturally adhered to the rules, despite not formally being trained in them.

[bengatta]

Hmmmm, having a bit of trouble keeping up to speed...

Basically what you are saying is...

If you think you like something, then before you can actually confirm if you like it or not, you should call in an expert... have him disect it into layers, strip away all of the goodness, lay it all out to dry to see what bits shrivel up, then have him tell you if you actually do like it or not???

Basically if I prefer Susan Boyles version more than Hayley Westenra's then somehow I am wrong? that I find strange in a very subjective environment such as music, where winners and losers cannot be as easily defined as those who crossed the finish line first, second, and third like in a motorport event...

I also prefer U2's version of Helter Skelter over the Beatles original version... but can also appreciate others may differ in their opinions to mine... which is that subjective thing coming up again...

Interesting concept, that I guess is only really possible in the wonderful world of internet land....

Personally Montey I found it stunning... nothing to do with Music at all, and I will not even remotely suggest you are not qualified to be critical musically, your credentials are quite clear and definitely allow you plenty of scope to comment musically... But, sometimes things are more than just a single element. To me this is more in terms of the human side of something... like, a woman who as you suggest has possibly been a loser all of her life, most likely acheived nothing of note, and lived a meagre existence, but despite all of those interesting observations and I am sure there were many of them, decided "to hell with it anyway" and chased a dream she has clearly held onto since she was 12 but never found the courage, nor the opportunity to showcase or act out her dream, then finally overcomes all of this and stands up in front of one of the most known harshest critics in music reality television, notorious for picking even the slightest weakness in somebody, and instead makes him stand and applaud despite his, and virtually all of the viewers initial scepticism...

99.99% of the population give up on chasing dreams and goals far too young, and it is possible that this woman has not only entertained quite a large number of people, but she may also help others in similar situations re-ignite some dreams, however large or small they may be... if that is a bad thing, then bring on that type of badness every day of the year...

I do grasp what you are tyring to say, but the world needs to be a non technical place at times... Sometimes people just like stuff for no reason at all, Kylie Minogue has sold millions of Albums globally, yet critically she has been referred to as "the singing budgie"... The world is full of stuff like that, so the question is... "Is it wrong to simply just enjoy something for what it is?" that is the part that is somewhat confusing... or maybe an even more interesting concept is, Is there room on earth for both to exist? Is Andrea Boccelli actually really any better musically than an Ibiza dance DJ shipped in from Dublin for the night to entertain a few thousand speed dancers? Nope, they both have their place on earth... and i hope this Lady gets to live her dream for a bit longer also, now that she has been given the opportunity to show the world she has something that was quite pleasant and entertaining to hear...

[Montey]

Hmmmm, having a bit of trouble keeping up to speed...

Basically what you are saying is...

If you think you like something, then before you can actually confirm if you like it or not, you should call in an expert... have him disect it into layers, strip away all of the goodness, lay it all out to dry to see what bits shrivel up, then have him tell you if you actually do like it or not???

Nope... that's a fairly elaborate misinterpretation of what I am saying. I have not, in any way, suggested you can't like her singing. I have not, in any way, suggested you need an expert's opinion to decide whether or not you are allowed to like it. I have, on numerous occasions now, said she is a perfectly capable singer. What I have said, several times now, is that for where she has come from and the level of training she has received she is very good, but that she is not super-special, fall of your chair, the best thing the judges ever heard, sensational as the youtube clip implied. What I have said is that she has technical weaknesses in her singing that go partially to training but also go to her raw ability, in particular there is a weakness in her ability to express an interpretation of the song she is singing, a skill that is particularly important in the opera/operetta genre.

Basically if I prefer Susan Boyles version more than Hayley Westenra's then somehow I am wrong? that I find strange in a very subjective environment such as music, where winners and losers cannot be as easily defined as those who crossed the finish line first, second, and third like in a motorport event...

I also prefer U2's version of Helter Skelter over the Beatles original version... but can also appreciate others may differ in their opinions to mine... which is that subjective thing coming up again...

Congratulations, I am glad you like some performers and performances over others, it shows you have the cognitive ability to make decisions for yourself. So -if- she get's a record album, will you buy her record? I won't be, but that's my -personal- opinion, and I am saying I don't think there will be all that many others who will either (she might do well with a first single because of any hype that is built around her, but I don't think there will be many sales after that). But again, thats just my opinion and if you love her work that much you are more than welcome to add her to your CD collection. I certainly won't think any less of you.

Interesting concept, that I guess is only really possible in the wonderful world of internet land....

Personally Montey I found it stunning... nothing to do with Music at all, and I will not even remotely suggest you are not qualified to be critical musically, your credentials are quite clear and definitely allow you plenty of scope to comment musically... But, sometimes things are more than just a single element. To me this is more in terms of the human side of something... like, a woman who as you suggest has possibly been a loser all of her life, most likely acheived nothing of note, and lived a meagre existence, but despite all of those interesting observations and I am sure there were many of them, decided "to hell with it anyway" and chased a dream she has clearly held onto since she was 12 but never found the courage, nor the opportunity to showcase or act out her dream, then finally overcomes all of this and stands up in front of one of the most known harshest critics in music reality television, notorious for picking even the slightest weakness in somebody, and instead makes him stand and applaud despite his, and virtually all of the viewers initial scepticism...

I believe I also said she had "balls of steel" for going on the show.... so your opinion of her on that front is nothing unique. Also, that particular judge is not really particularly harsh,he's paid to act out a persona (which he also appears to enjoy), but he also reads the audience reaction and goes with the flow. If he had of completely bollocked her (not that she deserved to be bollocked) the crowed would have lynched him, a bit like when Mark Dickson told off that Australian Idol chick that she shouldn't have worn that dress. Never mind that Dickson was right, it was not P.C., so he got hammered for months afterward. By the way... what happened to that girl... has she been selling many albums lately?

99.99% of the population give up on chasing dreams and goals far too young, and it is possible that this woman has not only entertained quite a large number of people, but she may also help others in similar situations re-ignite some dreams, however large or small they may be... if that is a bad thing, then bring on that type of badness every day of the year...

Again... I have not said there is anything wrong with what shes done, I am responding to the audience and judge's reaction, making out like she's the greatest singing talent they have ever seen, making it appear as if she's going to be the next Dame Melba and sell mega-loads of recordings (which -I- think its pretty obvious she won't)

I do grasp what you are tyring to say, but the world needs to be a non technical place at times... Sometimes people just like stuff for no reason at all, Kylie Minogue has sold millions of Albums globally, yet critically she has been referred to as "the singing budgie"... The world is full of stuff like that, so the question is... "Is it wrong to simply just enjoy something for what it is?" that is the part that is somewhat confusing... or maybe an even more interesting concept is, Is there room on earth for both to exist? Is Andrea Boccelli actually really any better musically than an Ibiza dance DJ shipped in from Dublin for the night to entertain a few thousand speed dancers? Nope, they both have their place on earth... and i hope this Lady gets to live her dream for a bit longer also, now that she has been given the opportunity to show the world she has something that was quite pleasant and entertaining to hear...

OK, this is where I need to make a distinction. You didn't ask "is Andrea Boccelli more entertaining than a DJ", you asked if he was "better musically" and these are very, very different questions. "More entertaining" means that more people like one or the other, I would argue that more people would probably like the work of leading DJ's than like Boccelli, but I think its obvious that Boccelli would be better musically than all but the most unique DJs, because DJ's don't, as a basic rule, need to understand the music they are putting out to the same level of detail.

[norbs]

Well I know feck all about music, I am as deaf as an 80 year old ex artillery gunner and love Neil Diamond's music, so you can take this with a metric shitload of salt. I am with B Cup here. I think it is great. Apparently the judges were giving her shit before she started singing, which makes it even better for me. Go old girl, I hope you get some fame, even if it is only 15 mintes worth.

[DexterPunk]

much better ........


[youtube] [/youtube]

[w00dsy]

the best bit of advice i ever got was way back when i started playing guitar, if it sounds good it is good. In music there is no such thing as good or bad, just do you like it or don't you. Music theory is one of those things where it can work well for you, but it can also limit you to the point where you might never want to stray out of the so called 'rules' of music.

This old bird isn't going to be remembered in a few months, she is a feel good story this week and everyone is jumping on it. She's a good singer, no doubt. No one expected her to be a very good singer because she's not young and pretty, like all our sugar pop stars are now. But reality is she will probably get her 15mins and because she's a frumpy old duck she'll woddle off back to her village as that lady that was once on the tele that made that nasty man smile.

[w00dsy]

looks like she might get 20mins of fame. Good on her.

A WEEK ago Susan Boyle was an unemployed 47-year-old single cat owner who had never been kissed.

She is still all of the above, but now Boyle can add global megastar to her unlikely CV. Even Oprah Winfrey is lining up to have the Scottish spinster appear on her show.

Over the past week an online clip of the Scotswoman singing on Britain's Got Talent has been viewed more than 20 million times.

In the process the unassuming charity volunteer has sparked an international debate over society's obsession with physical beauty.

The dowdy Boyle was written off as soon as she stepped up to the stage last Saturday, the audience unable to contain their laughter at her hopes of emulating British theatre star Elaine Paige.

But she changed their minds instantly with her powerful performance of I Dreamed a Dream from Les Miserables, earning wild applause.

Without a doubt that is the biggest surprise I have had in three years of the show," said judge Piers Morgan. "Everyone was laughing at you - no one is laughing now."

Back in her tiny home village of Blackburn, near Edinburgh, locals were not so shocked.

"We weren't surprised," Happy Vale Hotel manager Jackie Russell said yesterday.

"When we saw all the faces in the audience mocking her, we were quite hurt by that.

"We were all just saying just 'wait until she opens her mouth and belts it out', and she did.

"We had young boys in here, 19 years old, and they were moved to tears. Everybody had lumps in their throats.

"We were just moved because she'd eventually done something for herself. Susan would do anything for you, and now we feel it's Susan's turn."

The 5000-strong village welcomed her back last weekend with a standing ovation in church.

But, while locals expected her voice to shine, the worldwide reaction was another matter altogether.

National and international TV crews and photographers have filled village streets for days, and phones have been ringing off the hook.

NBC Today Show host Kathie Lee Gifford was moved to tears, CBS interviewed Boyle live, the Washington Post ran a major feature and hundreds of US TV and radio programs have asked to speak to her.

On microblogging site Twitter, it has been one of the most talked-about subjects this week.

Actor Ashton Kutcher wrote about the clip: "This just made my night." Wife Demi Moore replied: "You saw it made me teary!"

Now Oprah Winfrey has invited her to sing on her show, to which Boyle replied: "I might accept the offer if I get the chance. She's quite a lady."

She had been similarly innocent during her talent show appearance, where she revealed she'd been singing since she was 12 and had "always wanted to perform in front of a large audience".

Off-stage, she added: "I've never been married. Never been kissed. Shame ... but it's not an advert."

The attention has seen the hits on her YouTube clips go ballistic, outdoing the response to the Britain's Got Talent 2007 winner Paul Potts.

Potts became a global household name after clips of him singing Nessun Dorma went on to the website.

In a sign of what may be to come for Boyle, Potts went on to have a No. 1 album in 15 countries.

At the Happy Vale Hotel, there's not much work getting done with all the phone calls. Said Jackie Russell: "We've just been off the phone live on radio in Canada. We've had Texas on the phone, we've had everybody on the phone.

"We all knew that she had a beautiful voice, but we didn't know that she would take off like this."

Callers seeking interviews with Boyle yesterday were politely told she was booked solid until next week.

A spokeswoman for the show said: "It's the biggest response in talent show history."

And it wasn't an overstatement.

Of the millions who have watched her performance online, hundreds of thousands have posted supportive comments. Many admit feeling guilty for expecting so little.

"I shamefully admit I passed judgment before she sang," wrote one viewer.

Another said: "You prove that you cannot judge a book by its cover ... you are an inspiration to all of us middle-aged women who think they are dreaming the impossible and are scared to go out and show the world what we are capable of."

Boyle, who is handling the attention remarkably well, agrees that people are "too quick to judge" on appearances.

"There is not much you can do about it; it is the way they think; it is the way they are. But maybe this could teach them a lesson, or set an example," she said.

There are six more auditions before the judges will announce 40 semi-finalists, a quarter of whom will make it into the final at the end of May.

[Rots]

hmmm, looks like she's a Super Star already.

To be honest, I was impressed. Of course there are better singers, but she just made fool of the entire audience all of which had written her off before giving her a chance. That is what matters, not the level of talent.

[w00dsy]

whether it's music or whatever, everyone needs a gimmick.

[w00dsy]

here's a song she did 10 years ago, sounds pretty good to me, i doubt the Professor of Musical Superiority will give it the thumbs up though
http://www.entertonement.com/clips/zlxb ... Q?fl_link=